(Dave)- I've thrown in some comments too. I'll point out that comments in blue are Joe's, comments in red are mine.
It's fun to look back and see how that worked. If you can't tell already, Dave relates to Pierre and I relate to Andrew. War & Peace is an awesome work and this is the kind of discussion it can inspire.
Sep 28 8:06 PM
Dave: yo
Joe: yo
Dave: so, Lots of War in this section of War and Peace that we're reading.
Joe: Lots... I made good time.
Dave: good. I'm alittle bored.*
* I will just point out now, that if, at any time in this chat, I seem a little surly, some of that is related this chat taking place in the middle of a rough week for me, and some of that is my "natural charm"
Joe: where are you in it?
Dave: chapter 36 of book 10. I haven't read it since Monday.
Joe: Pierre at war?
Dave: a little past that... how far are you?
Joe: He's in the way at that redoubt.
Dave: that's probably the best part so far.
Dave: no, Prince Andrew's speech was the best part so far.
Joe: Why are you bored if you are at the best part?
Dave: His talk with Pierre on the battlefield the night before the battle was the best part of this section that we are now currently reading and I'm bored because the part I'm in sucks. It's after the Pierre-in-battle moment. It's all Napoleon and Kutuzov and screw those two guys.* (spoiler, sorry)
*Amen
Joe: Andrew's speech was great.
Dave: It was. I read that and Pierre's part Monday night. It was awesome. It's just hit a lull… for me anyway.
Joe: I love the undercurrent of "look, s--- just happens.... we like to think we control s---, but we don't" I love Tolstoy. Andrew's take about the fire in the soldiers was consistent with that.
Dave: True. I think this is just how I am with Dead Russian Authors. I bitch about how half the book drove me nuts and then I think back and decide that the book kicked ass.
Dave: Andrew is on the ball… A bit of a douchebag, but he's on point.*
*Dave just called me a douchebag!
Joe: Well, he's beaten down by his perspective. He "knows too much" as he states. Too much knowledge will sap your outlook
Dave: Ignorance is bliss. That's why southern people are so damn friendly.
Joe: Maybe I should move to Alabama.*
*This is a total inside joke because I will never live in Alabama. EVER.
Joe: I'm liking Andrew all the more. He's aspired to knowledge and found that too much of it just makes the world look f---ing* stupid, which is its own burden and he shows that it's a burden
*I really need to watch my mouth more.
Dave: Another reason you like him: He is an emotionless robot.
Joe: Well...* it's something I've been really fighting... the wrong kind of perspective over-represented will erode empathy. Balance is a struggle and Andrew personifies that. I deal with death all the time at work. It strips away at a person. Balance can be a struggle. It's not a great idea to turn death as a concept into nothing and routine. His "why take prisoners if you are serious" take was indicative of that.
*I didn’t know it at the time, but I think I was baiting for just this topic. It’s amazing to read back and see how conversations look in hindsight. I know this much… I really wanted to discuss this section.
Dave: This is true, but let's not get carried away with Andrew's perspective...He had a hard, stone-like personality from the beginning of the book. Andrew is not someone who has had his emotions stripped away by war and misery, in all likelihood he never had those emotions. I'd venture to guess that nowadays, if Andrew were around, he's be classified as slightly autistic*. Not sure if that's actually the case, but he's a lot like his father...unable to deal with real emotions, and lashing out at whoever makes him face those feelings.
*I don't think he's autistic in any way, that's more a commentary of our society's psychosis on labeling everybody's personality with some disorder.
Sep 28 8:36 PM (TO GIVE YOU AN IDEA OF TIME)
Joe: We never saw Andrew as a young man... hard to tell. If he came about the outlook because he figured people out, that's one thing... if he was always like that... that's another thing.*
*I think we defend characters we relate to even if we don’t realize it at the time.
Dave: He's great at analytically looking at a situation, but when it comes to really dealing with people, like, say, a 17 year old girl, he has no sense.*
*Who does, really?
Joe: To be fair... people who will ultimately go about trying to figure people out probably grew up fairly serious of demeanor. A deeply-analytical type won't mesh with emotions anyway... one could also say he has low tolerance for bulls---.*
*As someone who grew up with a serious demeanor with a low tolerance for BS… yeah, this is weird to read again. I’m really not defending Andrew as much as myself. Freaking self-reflection! It will mess with you! (Also, I need to swear less).
Dave: sometimes. And I'm acknowledging that he's great at figuring people out....but that doesn't mean he's any good at dealing with them personally. Half of human interaction is bulls---. That's just the case *
*A true statement.
Joe: Yeah... I can't disagree with that... but I think if you consider the emotional response to be bulls--- (something he clearly thinks), it will almost guarantee you won't deal well with it and won't be able to hide true thoughts on it.
Dave: True. I'm not saying Andrew is a bad person,** or even an overly-faulty one. Pierre, as much as I love him, is a f---ing idiot 90% of the time, which may be why I love him.
*Yes, he is. *No, I'm not
Joe: If he thinks its bulls--- or worse, weak, then he won't want to empathize... and THAT is the snowball in need of balance.
Dave: Well, that's when we get into an argument about what "weak" is.
Joe: You ever seen Seinfeld's bit on aliens and dogs?
Dave: Nope.
THIS STARTS JOE’S RANT 8:45PM
Joe: He basically said that for all our thoughts of self import and our arrogance for being self-aware, an alien watching from above would note that we're the one following on a leash and we're the ones picking up the s---. They (aliens) wouldn't guess we run the show. It's the old, “wouldn't you rather be the dog?” argument. Responsibility can be as much slavery as greater good. Whether a person agrees or not... the decision to be "responsible" or to seek understanding can lead to some heavy weight. I think Andrew portrays that side of humanity brilliantly.
That distance or lack of empathy can help when making cold calculating decisions (like saving lives by dropping an atom bomb), so it has its place... but Andrew shows the conflict. Pierre shows the view of how cool stuff looks BEFORE you understand it. But, Pierre understands a lot, so he more shows how interesting NEW things are… Him smiling and watching the gunners... brilliant... and awesome.
Dave: But it's also about faith, and belief, and lack of it.
Joe: faith in what? People? If people, then that's fragile as all get out.
Dave: give me a f---ing second.
Joe: sorry. *
*Not actually sorry.
Dave: It's not necessarily about faith in god, or people, but that's part of it. It's more the ability to have the faith. It’s the ability to believe in something, and to not try to figure everything out, just to take some things on credit. Andrew's faith in humanity is basically gone, whether it's eroded away or was never there isn't the point … the point is that he believes in himself, and that's it.
Joe: And that's why he's scary. He's what happens without balance. Once again, you said it in like 2 sentences. I envy your brevity.*
*This marks the first time in my life that I've been complemented for not being wordy. Mark it down!
Dave: Pierre, the reason he sees new things, is because he believes in new things. He's not over analyzing anything, He's just living life, and what happens, happens. Andrew's "we can't control anything" attitude is largely a front, because throughout the book Andrew is trying to control everything. Pierre is the one who's floating through life, come what may, and trying to be a better person, but he doesn't feel the need to analyze every person or situation that comes along.
Dave: (not done yet)*
*What!? How dare you!
Dave: The reason Pierre is able to float through life is that he has faith. Again, not necessarily talking about religion, although that's probably part of it. (Russia was pretty orthodox back then). It's the belief that you don't need to know or control everything. It's the faith that you don't have to have a hand on the steering wheel at all times. An argument could be made that this is the more dangerous mindset, and I don't know that I could disagree, but there it is. Andrew is ultimately scared to let anything in life pass his notice. Pierre believes that if it's important enough, he'll see it.
Dave: okay, I'm done. *
*About time, too.
Joe: I can't disagree in general other than that I don’t think Pierre's outlook is dangerous. Pierre floats for sure. Hell, he floated right into the heart of the battle... again that was awesome… a large, awkward fly on the wall... funny visual to me… large, awkward SMILING fly on the wall, even.*
*Note to self: halloween costume? Hmmmm......
Dave: Pierre's outlook is dangerous, for the simple fact that even if you are paying attention to everything, you will miss something....It's how Pierre goes through a couple of years before realizing he loves Natasha. He’s dangerous in the sense of living life, not actual dangerous.*
*Which can be actually dangerous, of course, if you make decisions like "Hey, those guys are firing cannons at each other. Think I'll have myself a closer look!"
Joe: Self inflicting... I guess I could see self-inflicted danger there... and since they both have their danger spots, that makes this a description of just how people are... which is why TOLSTOY IS BRILLIANT.
Dave: No argument here. His brilliance shines through.
Joe :If I could summarize Tolstoy... it would be this: He describes how people are… To such an amazing degree that you will totally get it and struggle to explain it. I may not like Natasha... but she's how some people are... Every character of importance is that way.
Dave: Except Mademoislle Bourianne, who's obviously the T and A of the story. *
*Mademoiselle Bourianne wears little French maid outfits everyday with thigh-high stockings and high heels and you can’t convince us she doesn’t. She also wears the early version of the Wonderbra and arbitrarily climbs ladders to dust while oblivious to anyone in the room. Don’t look at us like that… You know it’s true.
Joe: Yeah, but even then it's like, “That's totally how hot women are.”... and he never even said she was hot... yet it's so clear it doesn't need to be said. I am not going to handle claims of boredom from book club well on this one.*
*You have been warned.
Sep 28 9:07 PM (we are long winded)
Dave: Oh, this is not going to be a popular section of the book.*
*Judging by last night's potluck, I was wrong on that. Which is awesome.
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