"Almost a Perfect Book"

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This post contains spoilers.  We take each book in a row, but allow references to flow freely.  So, if you do not want spoilers, go finish the books and come back!  Seriously, you should read these books.  Trust us.  This chat represents but a portion of the conversations any of us have had about the Song of Ice and Fire series.

The following is a chat that included three of us, Joe, Dave and James, on a Thursday evening. We have included a few areas, located in shaded text, dealing with questions in the story.  So, you can read us geek on A Song of Ice and Fire below.   We had fun.

Joe: Should we start GOT?

Dave: what?

James: Joe has an abiding need to finally discuss some Starks... or at least, to include me.

Joe: Well, we did discuss doing that... Starks be hurtin.

Dave: Oh. OH. That's what the chat was... holy shit, I'm a dumbass.

James: so Joe, how long is your list of discussing questions?

Joe: I didn't get to one, so I figure I'd go by book.  Unless you have a different idea... we could just go with the "key" moment from each...

BOOK ONE: GAME OF THRONES

Joe: Must start with poor Ned... Quick thoughts on Ned.

James: I was quite pissed.  It wasn't until the end of book 2 that I realized there would be lots more. Well, I was not surprised, but still pissed.



Joe: Did any of you see it coming? Baggs claims to have predicted it in episode 2 of season one, but he has yet to read it. I was warned to prepare for deaths.  When Jen was early on book one, she said "Ned is the only character in there with a real head on his shoulders" and I had to hide my face. I reminded her of that comment when she got to his untimely death.

Dave: I was not surprised, but I had that blown for me by the Internet.

Joe: I did not see it coming until he refused to hold children hostage for the sake of power and Cersei was the one he was fighting with for power.  At that moment, it was obvious.

Dave: Was it really obvious?

James: It wasn't her decision.  Her threat perhaps, but she just wanted him to take the black, and be rid of him.

Joe: Well, he wasn't willing to "go all the way"... and Renly disappeared like he knew something.

Dave: I'm just asking as someone who knew it was coming anyways, and in the back of my mind, I was still kind of expecting that something would happen to save Ned.

James: Littlefinger as well

Dave: It's a very rare thing to kill a main character that quickly. You do it wrong, or don't write everybody else well, you lose your audience.

Joe: True... and Joffrey was a wildcard.  Maybe I should just blame Sansa... Dave... I think, as I think back, maybe it was more surprising than I recall now.... He was ready to go North. Honestly, is there a better villain than Joffrey?

James: Ah, Joffrey... Freakshow.

Dave: I give Martin a metric ton of credit for pulling it off. That really was the point of no return in the books. If you make it that far, and don't give up the moment his head hits the ground, you are a fan for life.



Joe: Good point. Martin has balls. He swung for the fences early.  Shot the moon. Really put it out there and made it work.  A metric ton, indeed.  The first book really hooks you.

James: I think there are many different better villains than Joffrey

Dave: Joffrey...there isn't a better villain...at least not so far. Littlefinger, maybe, but he has shown that he is easily distracted from his evil by female members of the Tully clan

Joe: Tywin Lannister... and, my God, Ramsey Bolton is a sick fuck.

James: yeah, I have issues with Ramsey.

Dave: I don't think Tywin is evil. Ramsey is a son of a fucking bitch.

James: Tywin is ruthless, and smarter than hell

Joe: Lots of evil of different types, but no one beats Joffrey for pure just entitled and pampered brat-evil.

Dave: But not nearly smart enough to be a great villain.

James: I'll give you brat evil, but I don't think that Joffrey counts as the best villain. The most complete picture of a bully I can think of.

Joe: I saw an interview where Martin was asked if Joffrey was based on a bully from school... and he said "He was probably based on 5 or 6 kids I knew from school."

Dave: But, here's the thing....How many true heroes and villains are there in the books? And when I say heroes, don't just count people you like.

Joe: Not many... there is so much Gray.

James: There are a couple of villains. The Mountain would rate.

Joe: It is a debate whether Jaime becomes sympathetic... I don't see it, but I do see potential for Theon.  Perfect segue to book 2, no? Theon and his evil move... before we do, though.. any overall book one thoughts?

James: Which is the evil part, just the sacking of Winterfell? Or faking out everyone with the death of the miller's kids?

Joe: Sacking and murdering children and Maesters and mens at arms.

Dave: Also, turning his back on the family that cared for him.

Joe: Theon let power, even slight power, go to his head massively. He did not handle power well at all.

James: No, he didn't. But his issues are more related to the Drowned God, and measuring up to a standard he didn't understand.

Joe: Ah... the Iron price.

James: I love the wall. The notion of taking the black, and the wall is pretty cool. A nice, unique thing within the realms of fantasy.

Joe: The Direwolf scene where they find the pups has really stuck with the whole book.  Just really framed the Starks.  Unfortunately it's also as good as it gets for the Starks and that includes Ned getting beheaded... in short, it's all downhill for Starks.

James: For many, many seasons, yes, however, I am confident that will change.  Regarding HBO, I am disappointed how they have "portraited" winterfell... no grand castle.  Sad.  I have only seen parts of season 1 admittedly.

Joe: There are so many "ideas" like that in here... taking the black... the idea of immunity if sheltered and fed... just so many unique things. Dave.... final book one thoughts?

Dave: I think that Book One, as far as pacing, and story line, is about as perfect as it gets in the series so far. There are no other books that I was constantly enraptured from chapter to chapter, and never said things like "Oh man, another Bran chapter". From a story perspective, it's almost a perfect book.

Joe: Well put.

Dave: Also, TEAM DAENERYS BITCH! RECOGNIZE.

James: Yeah, a good heir.

WHO ARE YOUR FAVORITE MAJOR AND MINOR CHARACTERS?

JOE- Major: Tyrion.  Self evident.  Minor: Prince Doran.  I will elaborate on Doran a bit.  He is physically frail and always methodical.  He appears in many ways to be lethargic and slow, but Martin has developed his character so well over few pages that it is clear how cunning, patient and brilliant he is.  That lethargy turns to greased-lightning when needed, but he is careful never to start a fight he cannot win.  The character and culture of his people in Dorne is the opposite and they do not seem to understand how brilliantly they are being led.  I am already furious about his inevitable death when one of the reactionary and hot-headed "Sand Snakes" goes Brutus on him to force a battle they cannot win.  For now, he has isolated each of them, focused their fire for his benefit and managed to better his kingdom without anyone realizing it.  This dude is freaking awesome and on par with Tyrion.

JAMES- Jon Snow.  He's my favorite Major character.  A young man, in a situation where it's impossible for him to follow the steps of his Father, to ever take over the role he has been co-groomed (being raised with Robb) for.  Taking the only opportunity left open to him, he takes the Black, ends up in an interesting situation, and eventually makes some headway.  Varys is my favorite minor character.  I always am fascinated by the information-provider types, regardless of the story, and Varys moves in and out of the story in a fluid manner which is important, as he tries to show that he's ambivalent, until so much later in the story line.   The Others also deserve a mention.  Immense introduction to an existential-level threat, and then we hear absolutely nothing of them for eons.  

DAVE- Obvious as it is what major character I follow/obsess over, let's talk about Theon Greyjoy. Theon is ...not likable in any way, stuck between two families and desperate to belong to somebody. There is not a lot of focus on Theon in the first book, so you don't get a close look at life at Castle Winterfell. But I imagine he was largely scoffed at by most people there, for being one of the worst kind of people..i.e. the entourage member famous for being in an entourage. All of the perks, none of the power. It is easy to hate Theon when you first meet him, and I think that's because he's so easily recognizable. Everybody is familiar with somebody who gains acceptance or privilege simply by knowing the right person/s. But Theon's struggle, the reason he is very conflicted, and the reason that I spent a lot of Clash of Kings feeling sorry for him, is that he has tenuous connections to two noble families, with no real attachment to either. And every terrible idea and action he has in Clash of Kings is based on him gaining a power that has been denied to him, largely because of his father's actions, made before he was old enough to even have any say. But that power that he so desperately craves, is just him looking for acceptance into one world, any world, as somebody important, somebody other than Theon, that guy following the Young Wolf around. And that is what makes him compelling. More than most other characters, I can see myself making the decisions that Theon makes, even (and in some cases, especially) the irrational ones. Because, for all of Jon's frustrations of growing up a bastard, Theon has felt all of that pain times two, with no parent guiding or consoling him. Even after his actions in book 5, I do not like Theon Greyjoy. But I understand him, and I like reading about him.

BOOK TWO: A CLASH OF KINGS

Joe: Which is what brings Dave to his rant against book 2... And, I think I loved book 2 more than just about anyone I know.  None of them are bad, and book 1 can't be beat for being the first in many ways, but I really really loved book 2 as well.

James: Why?

Dave: Yeah, why?

James: So, fyi, I hate the Eyrie. I didn't spell that right. Anyways, those guys are weak, though the moonroom is an interesting idea.

Joe: Tyrion vs. Cersei... the chess match... the positioning of the pieces... the maneuvering for power. To me, it's like watching the dominoes get set.  You can see how different players are trying to ally and position.  Also, Tyrion is freaking at his best in book 2. Before dominoes fall, you can see how it may go and how people are trying to influence it once inertia hits. The most political of the books and I love that.



Dave: Everybody hates the Eyrie

James: I think he gets unshackled in book 2, I like him in book 5 a little more.

Joe: Blackwater Bay, you guys... Blackwater Bay!

James: Oh, the strategy was priceless.

Dave: I do like Blackwater, and the introduction to Stannis, Renly's final sword stab, pretty much anything about and around King's Landing.

Joe: Tyrion with and without power is 2 vs. 5 for him.  I liked 2 better.  He was fantastic and he played Cersei so well. He saved their bacon, but because he got wounded, Cersei STILL ended up on top because she doesn't miss any opportunity even after getting pummeled for 15 rounds.

James: the way the red witch got involved with that was kind of disappointing.

Joe: Book 2 did have our introduction to magic... at least non-dragon magic.

James: I realize, but it also cut short a massive battle.

Dave: Well, Tyrion got hit with a steel chair. By his dad.

Joe: Don't forget Arya's travels... I thought that was awesome in book 2.

James: kind of.

Dave: Meh.

Joe: Tywin is sooooooo awesome as a character.  That guy is so smart and cold when needed.

Joe: I admit Dany didn't have much... but I do think in the long arch, she needed that time... developed the dragons as young, time to grow, time for her to pick up the pieces.... And I will now let Dave rail against Martin for screwing her over... Dave?

Dave: Look, I've said many times, I don't think that Martin had a plan for her yet, and when it became obvious that he had to write a second book...he got lost.

James: Let me get comfortable.

Joe: Dave... your all-caps must be not working. Did you accidentally turn it off... we ARE talking about Dany in book 2.

James: ha ha.

Dave: Don't worry Joe, if we are going to discuss all 5 books, the caps button will come into play. I was REALLY pissed about her though....she just wandered around, like a lost child (DON'T).

James: I can agree that he seemed to be reaching with Dany.

Joe: Wait... did a certain other thing overcome your hatred of Dany's book 2 arch... my  God.... Don't break the cap lock.

Dave: Also, Jon circled around the arctic drain for most of book 2.

Joe: Agreed that he wasn't sure what he was going to do eventually and punted on her.  I was so distracted by the Tyrion stuff I wasn't bothered.  "When all your joy turns to ash in your mouth, then you will know the debt is paid."  LOVE THAT

Dave: Look, the Cersei and Tyrion stuff was magnificent in Book 2...and it HAD to be, because if it wasn't, that book would have blown cock from here to Braavos

Joe: Jon didn't do too much, but the excursion was a neat look beyond the wall.  I liked that.

Dave: Yeah it was fun, but it was about 8 chapters too long. You could have taken care of that in a much shorter time.

Joe: James, where do you fall on Jon in book 2?

James: Well, we know that Jon knows nothing.

Dave: DON'T GET ME STARTED ON THAT.

Joe: Really loved Mormont. THERE IT IS - CAP LOCKS, BABY!

James: Jon's softspot for the underdog got a bit annoying and eventually causes other problems.

Joe: I really like Sam Tarly.

James: Sam is nice enough, but kind of useless for the first 3 books.

Dave: Wait, wait. wait..... There's a book where Sam isn't worthless?

James: He does fine getting the old maester to the tower, in what, book 4?

Joe: He has the horn of winter, killed an Other and brought an ounce of brainpower that is not yet 100+ years old to the wall... and he learned to grow a portion of a spine ... worthless?! How dare you! Now I'm upset. No one likes Sam?

James: Some of these details are fuzzy, its been more than a year since I finished a couple of these.

Joe: He got Aemon to the tower pickled in a barrel of liquor!

Dave: I like Sam. But I'm sorry, Joe, largely, he seems pretty worthless. Except for getting Jon the commandership.

Joe: You can thank him for knowing what dragon glass is good for.

Dave: And that...wait for it, Dave. Wait for it.  True. and that was largely an accident. Don't blame us. We didn't write him.

Joe: How dare you both.

James: I think Sam is a crutch for Jon.

Joe: I see now why Jen and I both liked book 2 more than anyone else.

James: Btw, Jaime is a cocky sonofabitch.

Dave: What did Sam do in book 2 that meant that much? Jaime is a dick.

Joe: Jaime is at the height of his powers in book 2... he is unrepentant, defiant as a captive, still unfazed in the face of tough odds.

James: I'm honestly pissed that George didn't let Sam do more in the library on the Wall.  that was a really promising thread, I thought.

Joe: A dick all the way.. which establishes why losing his hand changed so much.

Joe: KILLED AN OTHER

Dave: THAT WAS BOOK 3

Dave: WHAT DID HE DO IN BOOK 2

James: Whined a lot!

Joe: Oh yeah... sometimes those blend together.  He didn't get his own chapters until book 3, so we see him through Jon in book 2.  He was used a lot to contrast Jon with the rest of the Nights Watch, seemed to embrace a life change eventually and kind of came of age.  I just enjoyed him.  He converted to a "main" character in book 3.

James: true

Dave: Okay, final thoughts on Book 2?  I think I made my points on that.

Joe: Final thought... I clearly liked the Wall better than most, and was not as troubled by Dany's wandering and consider the political stuff the very best part of almost any of the books.  I loved it more than most.  These books seem to rank themselves based on the character preferences of the readers and that fits for me and book 2.

James: I love the wall.  The primary weak link has been Sam as a major character. It was fine to see the splitting of the kingdoms.

Dave: I think it's somewhat telling, that Tyrion has his "wandering the desert" moment in Book 5, but Martin makes it much more interesting than anything that happens to Dany in book 2.

James: The loss of central control, due to Robert's death... the young wolf building speed.

Joe: Martin has admitted publicly that Tyrion is his favorite character.

Dave: It shows.

Joe: Robb is really good in book 2.

Dave: Well, yeah, he's good, even though all we get for him in book 2 is third hand.

GEORGE MARTIN, PLEASE KILL THIS CHARACTER......

JAMES-I'd vote for Lysa, but we finally got there.  That being said, I'm going with Aeron Damphair.  I dislike most of that branch of the story, and I'm really not sure he's done any worthwhile things, even as a transport between other major characters up on the Northern isles. 

DAVE- Jaime Lannister. He's largely served any purpose he could have, And I don't see what he could do further that could be either that interesting or within his character. Honestly, let Zombie Catelyn kill him, and get some measure of revenge for her slain husband. 

JOE- Sansa Stark.  I know, I know... they have suffered enough, but I am struggling to see what she brings anymore.  Jen thinks she will be the "Stark of the Seven" to compliment Bran (Weirwoods), Jon (maybe serving the Lord of Light), Rikon (something else?) and Arya (God of Many Faces).  I am not sure it will go that way and see Sansa's role as hostage played out.  I think her chapters would become Littlefinger chapters.  If Sweet Robin could die with her, I would be fine with it.  Walder Frey needs to die for karma's sake.

BOOK THREE: A STORM OF SWORDS

Joe: Just, holy shit. Definitely the most happens.  Although I prefer the setting of the dominoes, the falling of them was spectacular and worth the wait.

James: I had a hard time explaining how the Red Wedding hit me to you guys without ruining it.

Joe: You can do that now.

Dave: Explain it now... what he said.

James: I was SO pissed... like for DAYS. I was mulling that over, after I finished the book and was in the middle of #4.

Joe: Walder Frey... maybe a bigger dick than Jaime.

James: yeah... and the hordes of his sons and bastards.

Joe: Dave... did you tell James your work Story about the red wedding? BTW, The Red Wedding is just about to hit on season 3... get ready for TV watchers' reacting to that.


Joe: Also, listen to Simmons' podcast this week about GOT... they are complaining about how there hasn't been a seminal moment yet... and the RW is coming... they sound really stupid.

Dave: Many of my co-workers were listening to the books on tape, and one day I was getting some packages ready to ship, and all I hear from the Wax Pouring department is BULLSHIT!!!!!

Dave: So I go in there, thinking maybe there's a fight or argument or something, and one of the wax pourers just stares at me, and yells "They're all fucking dead? I'M FUCKING DONE WITH THIS
BOOK! HE KILLED THE WHOLE FAMILY!

Joe: LOL

Dave: It was after the Arya chapter where you are tricked into thinking that she's dead.

Joe: I remember just putting the book down and just absorbing it.  It was heavy.  James... did you ever contemplate quitting it based on the RW?

James: I will say, I didn't really believe the boys were dead by then, but, I kept wishing they'd kill off Sansa, just to get her out of that, but...

Dave: Does anybody like Sansa?

Joe: Lady Cat... maybe.

Dave: anyways, James, you were saying...

James: But I felt basically sick about the RW for weeks. Arya, well, I kept waiting for that to happen.  She'd been put in danger for such a long time and I couldn't figure out his plan for Arya other than to sort of torture her along.

Joe: George did reward us with a wonderful death for Joffrey.

James: Yeah, it was fitting, though long in coming.

Joe: Dave... did you just blow by the RW?  I remember you were in Florida when reading it.  What did it do to you?

James: it finally looked like the North was going to exact some justice. Robb was doing so well.

Joe: Must inject a Jen thing... She said after reading it how "bush league" it was for Martin to kill a character in the first person... In this case, Cat and Arya... I had to say nothing without ruining that... based on that, I can report that Martin has NEVER yet killed a character in a first-person chapter (Jon pending... we'll get there).  I just couldn't say anything to Jen at the time and had to again remind her of the comment after the Epilogue... which... might be my favorite chapter of the whole series.  Poor Robb. Zombie Cat was fantastic.

Dave: It was shocking...But I don't think it affected me like it did James. It fit with what was going on with the story at that point, and it was ever so slightly foreshadowed throughout that book. Rob was doing well, but he wasn't doing that well, and kept pissing off the wrong Northmen.

James: the whole getting semi-adopted by the hound was ridiculous.

Joe: It was another in the ever-meandering path of Arya... she just couldn't go in one direction and that seemed appropriate considering her vulnerable station at the time.

Dave: By the way, that co-worker...by the end of that same day, I asked him if he was still pissed at the book, and he had just listened to the part where Joffery dies, and he smiled at me and said, "no, we're good."

Joe: George owed us that after what he did at the Twins.

James: No, he still owes us more for that I think. Joffrey gets what he deserves no doubt.

Joe: The massive Wall battle was awesome.

James: Totally.

Joe: Really, just so much happens in this book.  It bordered on too much almost.  Still fantastic, but just like an old rickety roller coaster.  My neck hurt at the end.

James: Ok, so talk to me about skinwalkers.

Joe: Wargs?

James: Yeah and others. The one guy who has the hawk & cat. Can't think of his name right now... (Varmyr) how do you guys feel about that whole persona transference?

Joe: Seems like so many other things... all legendary things that are coming back for unknown reasons.  These things happen when Dragons are on the planet... Much is coming alive for whatever reason.  Loved the analogy of how the "performers" were getting better all of a sudden. Magic is back in the world.  The whole direwolf discovery seemed to portend that... I felt Martin adequately prepared me for that.  He made it seem natural.  I am fine with it.

Dave: It gave Bran something to do. It was worth it for that, if nothing else.

Joe: It's not like leaving the seasons (climate) unexplained, though. That's bullshit.

Dave: James, what are your thoughts on skinwalkers? You clearly have something on that matter.

James: I'm not against it.  to Dave's comment, it gives Bran something to do. I think that its how Jon is going to get out of his predicament at the end of book 5, but we'll get there.

Dave: Final thoughts on book 3?

Joe: So much noise... but fantastic. The peak of chaos.

James: I was confused at first why Danys got ignored until I did some reading online I was also really, really wanting it to snow, but had a lot of fun.

Dave: I thought it was a great book, A lot happens, but it's all necessary, and well done, and if there is one death I'm still kind of twitching about, it's Tywin...because we just really got to know him. But the chaos was needed, because you had to keep things moving. Also, TEAM DAENERYS WHUPS YOUR SLAVER ASS, ASTAPOR. STEP UP MUTHAFUCKA

James: I thought Tywin's death was wonderful, frees his kids to blow all that gold.

Joe: No mention of how she basically pulled a major con on that?

Dave: ALL IN THE GAME, SON.

Joe: (still awesome, but a con) Amen, Omar! OMAR!!!! I was sad for Tywin... I enjoyed his brand of deviance.

FAVORITE MOMENT OF THE SERIES SO FAR?

DAVE- There are so many moments in this series, expected and surprising, that are amazing, gut clenching, nook-gripping and I don't know that I can pick one. As I said earlier, Ned's death was tragic, but it was the moment when I knew that I was reading greatness. When the peasants turn on Joffery and company. Any moment with Tyrion in book 2. Any moment with Dany in book 3. Any moment with Arya in Braavos. The Black Watch's flight back to the Black Castle, and away from the walkers, where Sam becomes the Slayer. Drogon's wrecking of the fighting pit. Dorne. The Iron Islands. There is so much good, I won't just pick one. It wouldn't be fair.

JOE- Like Dave, I think there are too many to pick from, but I will go with Blackwater Bay.  Everything came into play at one time.  Tyrion at his tactical best.  Although it was horrific in some ways, it absolutely saved Kings Landing (even though for the Lannisters, it was fine based on how amazing it was).  Honorable mention goes to Zombie Cat (best chapter in the series for me), the people throwing feces at Joffrey and company, and Drogon lighting up the fighting pits.  Blackwater stands ahead, though, for me.

JAMES-Concur, too many to pick all of them.  Any of the skin walker scenes, even though I feel bad for Hodor.  Blackwater Bay of course.  Sacking of Winterfell.  Cercei's walk of shame.  Tywin getting what he deserved.  Make that the Lannisters getting their comeuppance.  The dragons finally being able to be somewhat useful, including Drogon doing things in the wild.  

BOOK FOUR: A FEAST FOR CROWS

Joe: Prince DORAN!!!!

Dave: The Sand Snakes!

Joe: Love Dorne and especially Prince Doran.

James: Yeah, was nice to see that other wing of the kingdoms finally show up.

Joe: My two favorite Characters: 1. Tyrion 2. Prince Doran.

James: I'm trying to figure out the daughters still.

Joe: They are crazy and reckless... and nothing like their uncle.  Prince Doran is like Kiff from Futurama... he just sighs as crazy people around him try to do stupid things and he has to stop them.

Dave: James, it's like a wise man once said...women be meddling.

Joe: Another wise comment was: Crazy doesn't rent... crazy buys.

Dave: That's a good one too.

James: ha ha.

Dave: So, for some reason, Book 4 is the lowest rated. And I really liked it. I thought Cersei's political travails, though not as intelligent, were just as interesting as Tyrion's in book 2.

Dave: Everything Dorne is great.

Joe: I would call it Cersei's descent into madness. She circled the drain, but in a fascinating way.

Dave: I liked Brienne's journey.  I even liked (gulp) The Iron Islands.

Joe: Brienne was great as well.  I was fine with the Iron Islands and I can say that because Jen is now in bed.  She hated that. I was fine with it.

Dave: Maybe it's growing up in the south, but I thought it was interesting.

Joe: The Kingsmoot was interesting.

Dave: Joe, if you had lived in the south, you would have liked it more.

Joe: Euron basically promised irrational results and won... that sums up Southern politics. He was also crazy, which also sums it up nice.

Dave: We've got a type. I will admit that.

James: I dislike Brienne, actually.

Joe: They also have a nutty religious sect that tries to take over... wait, my God... where do the similarities end?!

James: Thought she was misused in that role, but they can't seem to keep a suitor around, besides Stannis.  So not really anywhere for her to go.

Joe: Her and Podrick getting together seemed like it was going somewhere... and it didn't really. Although Podrick keeps saving people from certain death... Tyrion and now Brienne.

Dave: I thought she was used well, in a "this is what it's like to be traveling as a woman, even a bad-ass one."

James: I suppose, but having to tote Jaime around...

Joe: Not sure why the brave companions were basically thrown in and killed.  Kinda out of nowhere for such an intersections of characters.  She didn't have Jaime here... just her looking for Sansa.

James: that was about introducing the faceless ones.

Joe: How so? Curious.

James: So Arya had somewhere to go besides wandering the Riverlands with Robert's Bastard.

Joe: Brave companions were faceless?

Dave: Faceless ones are the assassins.

James: Only the one that Arya saved in the barn fire.

Dave: Book 4 was where Arya really starts to become interesting. And most people get upset when I say that.

Joe: It got confusing.  But see now a better view after book 5.

James: I'm not sure if I go as far as really interesting, but it gives her a new start.

Dave: I'd say interesting. She's learning this new way of looking at the world, and how to kill people, and you know she's going somewhere with this...but where?

Joe: She finally stops just wandering to a destination that isn't there and starts to take shape. That I will agree with.

Dave: Honestly, if we are going to through the term "worthless" around, Arya before book 4.....not sayin.....just sayin.

James: Yeah, I felt for the little girl desperately trying to get home without help, but she could never catch a break.

Dave: I felt for her, but the character was kind of spinning her wheels for a bit.

James: Totally concur.

Joe: I won't say worthless. I thought it was interesting how she had no control of her direction and finally basically decided to take it.  Without that wandering, her later conversion makes less sense to me... you could say the same for Dany (but I won't for Dave's sake).

James: What she needs is access to the Dornish grandmother.

Dave: Joe, that's true, and I've basically said as much to you about Dany.

Joe: Queen of Thorns!

Dave: She's awesome.

James: So what's wrong with dany's conversion?

Dave: Nothing...just that Dany in book 3 doesn't make much sense without reading her being lost in book 2.

Joe: I also loved how EVERYONE explained to Cersei why there were such amazing reasons not to arm the religious folks and how she could not see past her nose and armed them only to be persecuted by them later.  Also, her decision to stiff the bank... priceless!  Cersei falling apart was a joy.

Dave: Same with Arya. The Aunt Lannister's conversation with Jaime in book 4...that still sticks with me today. Where she says to him, "You and Cersei both fight over who's more like your father, and the only one even close to him is Tyrion"

Joe: In contrast was Doran... maligned as indecisive... but really he was just patient in a sea of impatience.  Watching him do the right thing while calmly disarming the crazy piece by piece was a fucking joy.  Just fantastic and brilliant.  I fear for him because if he makes one small error one of those nut jobs will kill him.  But for now, just awesome. I loved that conversation as well.  Tyrion really is most like him... of course there are theories that C and J are Targarian... just saying.

Dave: Book 4...Final thoughts?

Joe: Underrated.

James: I haven't delved into the theories.

James: C & J are Targarian? Just because of the relationship?

Joe: They are fun.  There is reference to Tywin allowing his wife to be available to King Aryes. The site I found has citations all over the place... including that the pies given by Manderly at the Bolton wedding were made from the three missing Freys.  Fun times.  Anyway... book 4... I loved it.

James: I hated the iron island stuff. Just boring. I loved Dorne.

Dave: Great book.

James: Oh, hell.

Dave: ?

Joe: James... did you not like it?

Dave: Did we lose James again?

James: No. I'm here. Joe sent me the conspiracy link, so I got sidetracked.

Joe: Sorry... I do love that George called Sansa an "unreliable narrator" when describing an inconsistency.

Dave: You motherfucker!

James: So I'd go with an average rating.  Difficult to measure up to book 3.

BOOK FIVE: A DANCE WITH DRAGONS

Joe: Book 5 (ducking and bracing for impact)?

James: They really need to leave Jon alone... he's done everything asked of him as commander...
well, besides potentially screwing the black watch.

Joe: They need to get the wights through the wall eventually... and that wasn't happening with Jon in command - these are Jen's words.

James: Yeah

Joe: sorry... now it starts...

James: Cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war.

Dave: /takes a deep breath

Joe: I remind about first-person deaths... he'll come back. Maybe check the Lightbringer part of that page I sent, James.

Joe: Let it out, Dave.

James: Like I said, Ghost & the skinwalker connection will take care of Jon.

Joe: It was quite a gut punch. Will he be Lightbringer?

James: I was kind of pissed, it was obvious he'd gone too far, but I hadn't expected the Ceasar treatment.

Joe: Well, taking the army he just made to solidify the living vs. the dead... and taking it to Winterfell?  It was a terrible move.

Dave: BULLSHIT. THIS IS ALL BULLSHIT. YOU BUILD UP SOMEBODY FOR FIVE BOOKS, CHART A FUCKING JOURNEY THROUGH THE LAST BOOK, WHERE HE STARTS TO SHOW THAT MAYBE, JUST MAYBE HE HAS THE ABILITY TO COMMAND (AND HE CLEARLY WAS THE SON WHO WAS LISTENING TO NED) AND THAT MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, HE HAS A PLAN, AND THEN THE LAST CHAPTER HE TURNS FUCKING RETARDED AND MAKES NOT ONE, BUT TWO COMPLETELY FUCKING STUPID DECISIONS AND PAYS FOR IT. WHAT THE FUCK?!?!!!?!?!?!

James: Yeah, it was terrible.

Joe: On the heels of so many brilliant moves.

James: There we go. Cathartic?

Joe: On the level of the RW?

Dave: AND I KEEP GETTING PEOPLE TELLING ME "READ THE PROLOGUE, IT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING" AND YEAH THAT'S GREAT BUT GUESS WHAT? YOU'RE BASICALLY SAYING TAKE THAT ONE FIRST CHAPTER THAT'S REAL AND THE ONE THOUSAND PAGES AFTER THAT MEAN FUCKING NOTHING

James: Dave, calm down.  Dany will take care of this all.

Joe: Just stunned the shit out of me and I was warned "something" was coming.  Still stunned me. Dany is wandering the desert with a dragon who won't listen while fighting the apple squirts.
She's in a rough spot.

James: Lots of dragon fire.

James: But that's how she'll take her true form.

Dave: AND IF I HAVE TO READ THAT FIRE-KISSED BITCH'S WORDS AGAIN I MIGHT GOD DAMN PUKE. "YOU KNOW NOTHING JON SNOW". BULLSHIT. HE KNEW HOW TO WORK YOUR ASS AND HOW TO FIRE AN ARROW AND ALL YOU KNOW IS HOW TO DIE.

Joe: The prologue doesn't explain it all.

James: No, it doesn't.

Dave: GOD DAMN I THINK ABOUT THAT LAST JON CHAPTER AND I JUST GET MORE PISSED OFF. BULLSHITBULLSHITBULLSHIT IT DOESN'T EVEN MAKE ANY FUCKING SENSE. HEY RAMSEY'S GOT MY SISTER I'LL JUST STAY HERE AND DO NOTHING OH WAIT HE DOESN'T HAVE HER ANYMORE SHE MIGHT BE SAFE BETTER GO DOWN THERE NOW!!!!

James: power got to his head.

Dave: FUCK ME. JACOB COULD HAVE MADE THAT DECISION BETTER. MY CAT COULD HAVE MADE THAT DECISION BETTER. SO FUCKING STUPID. SEND THE FUCKING WILDLING ARMY JON. THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE THERE FOR. MARTIN FUCKED OVER HIS OWN CHARACTER.

James: This is true, but there's something else there.

Dave: Okay. I'm done.

James: Like I said, Ghost is still there.

Joe: I think Dave won't be alone in this.  So many people I know are reading these books will react the same way. Heather first and foremost.

Dave: James, gonna be honest. That's not doing it for me.

Joe: Ghost was locked in his room or something... is he close enough?

James: Yes.

Joe: Not sure anything will remedy that for Dave... Clearly Martin has some sort of reason he thinks Jon has to die, but I won't try to guess it.  He's earned some trust I am willing to give, but I obviously don't like how that went down.

James: I can imagine.

Joe: Another moment when I had to put it down and just sit in stunned silence.  I asked Jen as I put it down "He just BELIEVES everything that Psycho says in a letter?"

Dave: I realize he might be in his wolf. Jen made a brilliant and well put together argument for that to me already. But it will take a while before I accept that.

James: I liked Jon more than anyone personally.

James: That's one of the times I wish Sam was around.

Dave: Joe, if he believed everything that Ramsey said, then his decision becomes even more head-
scratching.

James: Not to mention Lord Mormont.

Dave: That's a good point, James. This is all Sam's fault.

Joe: Getting past the character shift will be tough.  It wasn't logical to his character.

Dave: FUCK YOU SAM YOU WORTHLESS FUCK

James: ha ha.

Joe: Poor Sam.

Dave: Now I'm done.

Joe: I was most stunned that Jon reacted to the letter like that. Other items... Dany in book 5? DRAGONS! Finally.  They became relevant, even if not easily controlled.

James: Yeah, the shift of character was unconscionable. Wild dragons at least, which makes sense.

James: I keep waiting for the unsullied to be useful.

Joe: I loved the little bit of Dorne we got too. Dany is spinning wheels again, but not the same way and it seems she just keeps making mistakes that haven't quite nailed her yet.

James: She needs a man.

Joe: And she ends up with one shoe, the shits and walking in a desert.  Selmy was good.

Dave: I think by the next book, the Unsullied will be very useful. Dany is learning, and she needs to figure out who to listen to...

James: She should have nailed the Bear.

Joe: Unlike you, James, Tyrion's story wasn't nearly as fun for me.

James: The humble part? Or the basically getting kicked around on the boat... cause that was fun.

Dave: Tyrion gets his nose bloody in book 5. I think it was necessary, and interesting from a character-building standpoint.

Joe: I recognize why it was clever, and how he had to deal with life without his family shield and such, but I just like Tyrion better in the other realm.  It was good and I recognize that it put his character to a better place, I just didn't enjoy it as much.  Necessary, yes.  Context for sure.  But, he was already well built for me.  Again, I see it, I just didn't enjoy his chapters as much as before.

Dave: Fair point.  But, much like Dany and Arya, I think it will become much more important later

Joe: Probably so.  I would bet on it.  Also... GREATEST WALK OF SHAME EVER!!!! Can we discuss Cersei "walk of shaming" into the arms of Zombie Mountain?

James: That was funny.

Dave: HAHAHAHAHAFUCKYOUCERSEIHAHAHAHAHA

Joe: So wonderfully described. Her emotional journey from defiant to humiliated and the relating of that woman his father made do that... it was so well done and written and told.  Just fantastic.

James: I also love the penance in the tower.

Joe: All Lannisters received humility in this book.

James: Well, had it thrust upon them perhaps.

Joe: Jaime still trying to be a left-handed warrior... Cersei, Tyrion.  Just full on Lannister penance.

Dave: Everybody receives humility in this book.

James: Not sure if Cersei actually got it.

Joe: True... Did I mention Dany has the shits?

James: She will set the world on fire.

Dave: A couple of times. You focus on the weirdest shit sometimes.

James: Whoooooo!

James: Fire, he he he he. He said fire he he he.

Joe: Cersei got it... just not sure she'll "get" it now that she has the Zombie Mountain to do her work for her. Martin is great at those little things.  He throws that in there... just to make it more relatable or whatever.  He does that well.

Dave: Every time you say Zombie Mountain, I think of some new amusement park ride

Joe: Robert Strong! Love that there is a "Strong" in there.  All joking aside... giving a character the runs is a Martin thing.  I latched onto that because it was unique in a book.  It was to me at any rate.

James: I like the roller coaster idea. Oh, let Dany alone.

Joe: James... you did say the Starks were not done... and Bran is maybe the most powerfully placed character in the whole damn series right now. Potentially.

James: She's been kind of missing anyone useful around.

Joe: Thoughts on that?

James: Well, I need to see how it plays out with him being powerful enough to do something the the heart trees. Especially in places where the weirwoods have been chopped.

Dave: I still think that Bran was in Jon Snow's raven right before he lost his fucking mind.

James: Because of Melisandre or the sparrows.

Joe: That is an interesting thing... I had not thought of that.  Could Bran have impacted something?

James: Neither had I.

Joe: Either way, Bran is well placed and I LOVE the rebirth happening with Theon.  Last comment of a new topic... Ramsey Bolton is a fucking psychopath.

James: He certainly is. We need to let a dragon eat him.

Dave: Give him a chance, guys, I think he's going to redeem himself.

Joe: Not sure I've ever seen a character suffer torture like that ever in any book.  And I do love how he is being almost reborn to himself with an awareness of mistakes.

James: Ramsey?

Dave: Yes.

James: Wow.

Joe: LOL... Ramsey redemption... if he pulls that off, it will be more impressive than pulling off Ned's death.  Ramsey = Dexter? Roose already told him "now, son, if you are going to torture Reek, do that shit private so no one sees."

Dave: Okay, he's probably not doing much redeeming. We will get to see him die at some point.

Joe: Ramsey Bolton... Psycho crime solver!  I love it as a spinoff. Ramsey tortures Walder Frey?
C'mon... that would be good!

James: That has merit.

Dave: Ramsey and Walder in a pit WITH A BEAR.

Dave: BOOM BOOKS SOLD.

Joe: That would sell many books.

James: And many of his sons and a boar.

Joe: With boiled leather and a flagon of wine!  This chat may take me a month to clean up... but it'll be fun.

Dave: Yeah...sorry about the rant.

Joe: It paints a picture.

Dave: It was coming out one way or another.

Joe:  Book 5 overall was really, really good.  I think it was awesome and have a hard time separating them.  I only ask that there be more Dorne in the next book.

WHO WINS THE GAME OF THRONES?

JOE- I must say that whoever wins the Iron Throne may indeed "win" power over a realm of ashes. It is also possible that chaos reigns and only a "negotiated" peace wins.  The central power figure would have to have both a "blood" claim to the throne and enough physical power (army) to take it.So, to answer directly I would have to say that Daenerys has the best chance based on both of those criteria.  I would also not be shocked if somehow Littlefinger was left standing just because resourcefulness means something in this world.  So, I'll go with Dany for the win with a healthy "nothing would surprise me" caveat. 

JAMES-So we're just ignoring the Others here?  The Wall is a shambles, it's finally Winter.  You understand how much snow they're saying they're getting in the first storm outside Winterfell?  It will move south, and allow us to cleanse a vast swath of the kingdoms, just in time to have Danys finally decide to do something useful with Drogon and come rolling on in to melt the fuck out of them.  Then somehow Tyrion and her kids will make beautiful music.  Until they get eaten by a wolf in the dark.

DAVE- #TEAMDAENERYS #TEAMDROGON #TEAMVISERION #TEAMRHAEGAL #TEAMFIREANDBLOOD #TEAMHIZDAHRJUSTKIDDINGFUCKTHATGUY 

CONCLUSION.

JOE:  I have not discussed a series of books as much or as thoroughly as I have discussed this series.  This series will impact my overall top 20 without a doubt.  Once the series is finished, it may even be a top-3.  Even Ben Franklin needs to be on notice.  Everyone who reads it has strong feelings and has been impacted deeply by it.  Also, I feel like it can be discussed well with anyone familiar with it.  Even those who just watched the show.  Dave said Book 1 was close to a perfect book and I think the series so far is close to perfection in many ways... depending on how it ends.  I am so looking forward to Winds of Winter!



DAVE- You only hurt the ones you love, right? When a relationship has wrapped you up and tied itself through your veins, all it takes is a quick violent action, and the pain shudders through your whole being. And that's how I feel right now, after reading A Dance with Dragons. If you take anything away from the foul-mouthed rant I have left above, besides "what the hell do Dave's parent's do wrong?", just take that I am completely in the bag for Martin's books. So much so, that when it seems like Martin turns on a character and destroys what he has spent many books setting up, I will not take it well. And the more I dwell on it, the more anger I feel. (Note- you may not feel like Martin betrayed Jon Snow in that last chapter. That's okay. I realize that I may be alone on this, and that Jon will have a life somewhere in future books. And honestly, I didn't know how much I liked Jon until the blades started ripping through his skin.) But this is not a eulogy for the books. I will continue reading them, and enjoying them. And whatever happens, eventually I will get over it. Because there is too much there to just let go. Martin has been so clever and enthralling with the world he has built, and the history within, and I want to know how things end. And ultimately I may have got a little too close to the story, but in the end, is that a bad thing?

 James - I'm with Dave.  Jon Snow got jobbed. I had an awful lot of fun reading this series, and there were reasons I made it assigned reading to the boys.  It got so bad, that when I first started this series, the week of Christmas 2010, I got so wrapped up in the loaner from the library, that around the time that Ned looses his head, I went out and bought the first book.  Then proceeded to buy the next one pretty much in sequence thru the spring of 2011.  I read the first 3 books, I think before the end of March 2011, and the other two by July.  I can honestly say that my daily dream cycle for a good 8 months regularly revolved around various sequences and characters in this series.  I expect to re-start the series from page 1 somewhere about 3 months before the publish date of book 6.  I still consider this series a second to the works of Tolkien, it was my first love in the world of fantasy.  George Martin will probably always have my respect.  Unless he somehow lets some moron do some sort of 50 shades-esque fan fiction piece.  (no Joe, you may not start one.  I know how you feel about Sansa).